SALUTATIONS
A correspondent sends advice for those of us who have stuck with AOL
during the recent unpleasantness.
*****For refund, call 1-800-827-6364. Be prepared to listen to a sales
message before receiving instructions on how to get a refund. Hang
on to the bitter end and you will be able to talk to a person. [I
think the refund may be more on the order of free service rather than cash.]
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We need to be more and more conscious of the courtesies and restrictions
which apply to the use of copyrighted material. I asked Kathleen Much (kathleen@casbs.stanford.edu)
if I could use her explanation in MN because she makes a clear statement
which avoids he legal cliches that that tend to confuse laymen. She
says: When you see the following statement: Copyright @1997
Kathleen Much [or other author], copying is permitted for noncommercial,
educational use by individual scholars and libraries. This message must
appear on all copied material. Any other use, including electronic reproduction
or distribution, requires written permission of the author.
This wording makes it clear that genealogists can quote from my research [or another person's research] for their own private collections, but not to sell it (or give it away) to others unless I give them permission in writing.
The biggest problem nowadays is defining "fair use"--I deal every day with scholars who want to quote from other writers but don't know how much is OK.
[Editor's Note: Most of us extract, abstract, and compile -- in effect we create new text, and TALIAFERRO TIMES is not a commercial venture. According to Kathleen, to be on the safe side,"the best rule of thumb is that the part quoted should be a very small percentage of the work it comes from and that your use of it should not hamper the original author's sales.
[Along with this explanation, I should also pass along to you that I
have applied for the copyright of TALIAFERRO TIMES. I'll notify you
when it is officially obtained. The copyright will be retroactive.
This is not so much to restrict your use, as it is to protect all of us
if material is lifted and used for distasteful or offensive purposes.]
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For TT subscribers who are interested in research in Scotland, STEPHEN
H. BROWNING (SBrown6113) has expanded his Ayrshire Genealogical Surname
Interests Database, particularly his links to related Web Sites.
The address is:
< - - http://members.aol.com/sbrown6113/ayrsurn.htm - - >
This database is a list of Ayrshire Surname Interests being researched via the internet. At its last update (27 Jan 97), the database contained 800 plus entries from around 100 submissions, with many more submissions being received daily.
Anyone with Scottish ancestry from the county of Ayrshire is urged not only to visit this site for possible links [great links for international research] but are further asked to contribute their own Ayrshire Surnames Interests as the popularity of this site may in turn may lead other researchers with valuable links back to you.
This website has also been accepted as the official Surname List for Ayrshire by the Genealogical Society for UK & Ireland and also contains an additional new page which will provide links to some of the submitters own genealogy on-line.
QUERIES
CLEONA RANDOM (random@stlnet.com)
*****I have read with great interest your letter and back issues -
all very knowledgeable and interesting. I'd really like to pose a
question that's been troublesome for many years to the researchers for
this branch of the family. The direct line I am researching
has not appeared in any of your issues thus far. I'm searching for
documentation on the parents of Lucy Toliver b 1766 in Va in William Maxwell
in 1786 and died in Lawrence Co., Indiana in 1832. In Nell Watson
Sherman's book "Taliaferro-Toliver Family Records she states that
in the Maxwell History it says that Charles Toliver has four brothers
and two sisters - William,John, Moses, Jesse, Lucy and Sarah and
that they were the children of Charles Toliver who was the son of
John and Sara Smith Toliver. However in "Pioneers of Coffee County,
Tn." Alice Daniel Pritchard states that those children were born to John
(b 1732} and Elizabeth Syndor Taliaferro. I would surely appreciate
any help anyone can give me in settling this dispute!
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CHARLEEN OERDING (charco@pacific-ocean.com)
*****I lunched recently with Emily whom I met on VA-Roots last fall!
We live within 2 miles of each other here in Portland! I mentioned
Taliaferros and she just sent the following to me:
"I ran across a Taliaferro in my records. Do you know a William Taliaferro who m. Elizabeth Hartwell Cocke about 1788? She was the daughter of Hartwell Cocke and Anne Ruffin of Surry Co, VA. Hartwell Cocke was the son of Richard Cocke and Elizabeth Hartwell."
Now Charleen again: I have a William T. married to an Elizabeth
Hartwell. Also have an Elizabeth Catesby Cocke married to a Jones.
Does anyone has information re: Emily's question. She is a
Ruffin descendant.
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CHESTER WARD, JR. (cward@occ-uky.campus.mci.net)
*****In researching Edward Tinsley of late eighteenth century Va.,
I've noticed researhers name his wife as Margaret Taylor and as Margaret
Taliaferro. At first, I thought there must be evidence for two different
women being Edward Tinsley's wife, but now I suspect the names Taylor and
Taliaferro are being used interchangeably. Has anyone noticed this
practice before?
RESPONSES
VLTP@ aol.com
*****Rev. War Col. Charles P. Taliaferro 1735-98 m 1758 Isabella McCullough
1739-94 d/o Roderick. Their children were Richard 1759-1806 m Mildred Powell;
Charles P. Jr. 1761-1821 m 1785 Lucy Mary Loving; John 1765-1807 m 1787
Elizabeth Loving; Peter 1763-82 dsp single; Zachariah 1767-1823 m 1790
Sally Warnick; Benjamin Berryman 1770-? m 1. Mildred (Franklin) Taylor
2. 1821 Judith Crawford;William 1772-will 1805 m Nancy Newman Eubank;Sarah
Behethland 1774-1844 m 1792 William Loving ; Roderick 1777-1820 m Susan
Newman Price; James Franklin 1779-? m 1805 1. Martha Price 2. Susan Brockman;Rose
Berryman 1781-? m1797 Joseph Loving. Have copy of Charles' bible record
also see Marriages of Campbell Co Va by Baker & Williamson pg 94-Amherst
Co Marriage Records 1763-1853 pg 72. Children went to La,Ky,Tn,SC,as well
as stayed in Va. Charles s/o Richard and Rose Berryman.
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WPGILBERT@aol.com
*****Notes from hither and yon.....various notes concerning my lines
garnerned from various sources...some of these members might even be "present"
members of "Taliaferro Times".....from a chart sent to me by Mary Jo Jackson...she
shows Joan Lane as being born 11 Jan., 1562 , Clerkenwell, London (St.
James), the daughter of Thomas Lane and Marcia Howe (marriage ?? 17 Jan.,
1562...?? after Joan's birth??
>From Ann Woodlief via Mark Faucette...Francis Taliaferro was born 25 Jan., 1589/90. He married Bennet Hey, the daugher of John Hey. Bennett was born 18 Oct., 1587, at St. Margaret ?? Moses, England...not sure about th St. Margaret, Moses part?? Bennett's deathdate was 4 Nov., 1626
>From Anne Hamlin: Francis Taliaferro, son of Bartholomew and Joan Lane, married twice. First to Bennett Haie (Hey), 2nd to a Mariam.
***From Paul Gilbert: I tie in through the Craig/Taliaferro lines.
Still looking for the father of Taliaferro Craig...
TALIAFERROS OF EUROPE
Some of our Taliaferros are really working at addressing the questions we are raising in this study. The generously share their hard-won results with us. Thank you for superb additions to TT.
BETTY ANN SMIDDY (103107.3363@CompuServe.COM)
*****I ran across the following which might help with some of the questions
posed.
Source: A Second Jacobean Journal-Being a Record of Those Things Most Talked of During the Years 1607 to 1610. by George B. Harrison, Univ. of Michigan Press, 1958. Page 76 - 14 Feb. 1608:
"14th. M. Julius Caesar, Sir Julius Caesar's son, a young man of 18
years, has been slain at Padua where he was a student. He used to frequent
the fencing school of BARTHOLOMEO TAGLIAFERRO. Here he engaged in a bout
with a pupil of the school, one Antonia Brochetta, and overcame him. Brochetta
then challenged him again, but contrary to useage attacked most vehemently
and wounded M. Caesar in the left hand, who then threw his dagger at Brochetta,
but missed him. On hearing Caesar's complaints, the master of the school
came out and told him never to come to his school again. So he went away
and found an English doctor, who with much ado staunched the blood. Next
morning Caesar comes early to the University, armed with sword and pistol,
when he encounters Brochetta coming out of Tagliaferro's house with sword
and buckler. Caeser shot at him with his pistol but missed; but as he was
trying to draw his sword he fell. Whereupon Brochetta was upon him and
thrust him through. Caesar rose, walked two paces, and fell dead.
Others say that the pistol was discharged by accident from beneath his
cloak which is pierced and burnt. The English students in Padua sent in
great indignation to Venice to Sir Henry Wotton, the King's Ambassador,
demanding the arrest of Brochetta, and complaining that although
by order of the Podesta M. Caesar was given a public funeral in the church
of S. Catherine, yet afterwards the body was taken up again and buried
elsewhere because the clergy would not allow the body of a Protestant to
remain in holy ground. On hearing the news the Venetian Ambassador here
went to Sir Julius to condole with him on the death of his son; to whom
Sir. Julius acknowledged the exceeding rashness of the
young man, for which reason he had sent him out of England to Padua
where he hoped he would have acquired learning and good manners."
p. 410
" Sir Julius Caesar, 1558-1636, son of Caesar Adelmare, physician to
Queen Elizabeth, a native of Treviso, in the Venetian territory. Sir Julius
Caesar was Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1606, Master of the Rolls 1614.
His third wife was a granddaughter of Sir Nicholas Bacon (D. N. B.). He
sent his eldest surviving son, Julius, on account of his "excessive
vivacity" to absorb learning and manners at the University of Padua. The
young man was wounded by Brochetta in fencing; lay in wait for him with
a pistol, fired at him and missed, and falling in drawing his sword, Brochetta
ran him through and
killed him."
[Editor's Note: Folks, this may be a fabulous find -
I hope we can follow up on it somehow. Let's all get on our internet
and search Italian web pages for information about Padua, its history,
and its people between 1500 and 1600. Remember that our Bartholomew
Taliaferro came to London under the sponsorship of the Duke of Venice in
around 1562 when he became a naturalized citizen of London. Also,
remember, that the name Taliaferro has reference to strong iron -
a fencing master, perhaps even a maker of swords?]
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WELDON ROGERS (hcfr@mindspring.com)
*****Lucy Hay, nee Percy, Countess of Carlisle was celebrated by 17th
century poets for her beauty and wit. She was the daughter of the 9th Henry
Percy, Duke of Northumberland. She married James Hay, Duke of Carlisle.
Carlisle is located on the western end of Hadrian's Wall, the border between
England and Scotland. Dr. John Gray's Whitehaven was on the Irish
Sea a few miles southwest of Carlisle in what is now County Cumbria. Hay
Castle is found on old maps a little north of Whitehaven, not far from
the village of Distington.
Lucy played both sides in the English Civil War, relaying information to both the Royalist and Puritan forces. She was imprisoned for a time in the Tower and died of Apoplexy shortly after the Restoration (1661). The later Dukes of Carlisle were Howards and apparently no relation to this James Hay.
Though not directly related (Lucy Hay was a Percy) we need to know more about James Hay and what happened to him and other members of his family.
Did the whole Hay family adopt the name of Gray to hide their association with Lucy? Including when they married Taliaferros in London? By the time John and Elizabeth Hay arrived in Virginia, there was no need for such aliases. There were other Hay families in VA.
More in Vol. 2 of the Britannica. I have not checked further.
[Editor's note: Another fabulous find. I checked out Stephen Browning's and specifically looked for the Hay surname in Ayrshire Scotland. There were about twenty names to contact for information about the Hay family. Ayrshire is on the lower western coast of Scotland, not too great a distance from the English towns of Whitechapel and Kendall mentioned in the Nelson deposition as homes of the Gray/Hay family.]
COLONIAL TALLIAFERROS
My apologies, I transported Robert Taliaferro II to the eighteenth century in Issue 14, 5 Feb 97. Weldon Rogers and I are working together (wrestling) to update, clarify, correct, and authenticate my old version of the life of Robert II. When our discussion ends, I'll republish it so that all of you can share in the fruits of our effort. If you have comments or observations, corrections or conflicting research about Robert II, please feel free to join our wrestling match. We welcome all comers!
RESEARCH
JOAN MIHAY jmihay@slonet.org
*****In Fighting for the Confederacy by General Edward Porter Alexander,
he mentions General Taliaferro twice. Once on page 130 in the chapter on
the Second Manassas Campaign, "Jackson had with him his own division under
Taliaferro, Ewell's & A.P. Hill's say 21,000 infy. men & 2,5000
cavalry...." [He is identified as Brig. Gen. William Booth Taliaferro of
Virginia in note to that sentence.]
Secondly, a note to page 133's mention of Starke, says, "Brig. Gen.
William Edwarrd Starke of Virginia took command of Jackson's division when
W.B. Taliaferro was wounded at Groveton on 28 Aug. [From context one would
assume this is 1862]
MISCELLANY
18TH CENTURY SHIP COULD BE FROM REVOLUTIONARY WAR By MARK ST.
JOHN ERICKSON Daily Press, 20 February 1997
An AP Member Extra
PORTSMOUTH, Va. -- Construction crews working on a new ferry slip have unearthed the remains of what archaeologists have preliminarily identified as a late 18th-century sailing vessel.
The rare find would make the ship one of only about a dozen known Virginia wrecks dating from the period, said archaeologist John Broadwater, who helped conduct the underwater excavation of a Revolutionary War vessel off Yorktown during the 1970s.
It also would represent the only chance scientists have had since that time to study something more substantial than fragments that have washed ashore.
''Any ship dating to the 18th century is considered unusual,'' said Randy Turner, director of the state Department of Historic Resources district office in Portsmouth. ''This is not an ordinary find.''
Construction crews discovered the unidentified wooden ship last Friday while excavating soil and debris from the new High Street ferry basin, said city public works director Richard Hartman.
Though partially destroyed by the work, two large sections of the roughly 100-foot-long vessel survive intact about 20 to 25 feet below the surrounding ground.
''We wouldn't have known it was there if he hadn't noticed what he was bringing up,'' Hartman said of a Tidewater Construction Co. equipment operator who spotted the ship. ''There's all sorts of old wooden pilings down there. But this was part of a hull.''
Hartman said his inspection convinced him to shut down the work until the remains could be examined by archaeologists from the Department of Historic Resources. His suspicions were confirmed when Turner identified the find.
Turner was joined by Broadwater, who now heads the Monitor National Marine Sanctuary, and DHR archaeologist Dave Hazzard. Also called in was nautical archaeologist Gordon Watts of East Carolina University, as well as two other members of the DHR staff, to conduct a more extensive survey.
Based on the size and strength of the ship's framing, the scientists believe it was a solidly built, substantial vessel that may have been capable of sailing on the ocean.
Its timbers also include a high proportion of pine and other softwoods, suggesting a Southern and possibly Virginia origin, Turner said.
Several artifacts found at the site, including a late 18th-century bottle and mid 18th-century lead-glazed earthenware, point to a date sometime before 1800.
That could make the vessel one of about 100 ships known to have been deliberately sunk in the Elizabeth River during the American Revolution.
''This ship was in very good shape when it hit the bottom,'' Turner said. ''It wasn't something that was just allowed to rot away and sink. So it could have been scuttled.''
Turner said the DHR will try to determine whether the site is significant enough to qualify for the National Register of Historic Places. If so, the city, which is using $3.5 million in federal funds to build the ferry landing, will have to conduct further archaeological studies to comply with the National Historic Preservation Act.
That work could range from measuring, documenting and photographing the wreck to a full-scale dig designed to recover all of the remains.
''The city's been remarkably cooperative and excited about this so far,'' Turner said. ''We want to work with them and see that there are no unreasonable delays'' to the ferry slip project.
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TALIAFERRO TIMES: Compiled from email and other sources
Distributed by Joyce Browning
(C)JBrown7169@AOL.com
26 February 1997